David Koresh & The Cuckoo's Egg, Part 4 of 4

	David Koresh & The Cuckoo's Egg Carol A. Valentine Interviews Andrew X98 April 19, 2001 Part 4 of 4
Three inverted crosses are formed by the window muntins in the "Synagogue of Satan" at the Mt. Carmel Center in Waco, Texas. The inverted cross is a symbol of Lucifer. "Those windows communicate this message: 'Death to the Father. Death to the Son. Death to the Holy Ghost,'" says Andrew X98. Note the black X worn by the man on the ladder.

Part 4 of 4

Isaiah 13: "Their children also shall be dashed to pieces ..."

CV:
Is there anything else Clive did or said to lead you to believe he is trying to suppress news of David Koresh's prophecies?

X98:
Shortly after my arrival at the Mt. Carmel Center at the end of 1996, Clive told me David prophesied that the Davidian children would be torn to pieces. Clive explained this by citing Isaiah 13:

"Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it." (13:9) and "Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished." (13:16)

CV:
But that says the Lord will dash the children to pieces ...

X98:
Yes. I was revolted by the idea that Christ would dash innocent children to pieces. But Clive explained Babylon's children would be dashed to pieces because Babylon had done that to God's children. He quoted Zechariah 14 and other verses. In this fashion, Clive said David had predicted that God's children -- Branch Davidian children -- would be dashed to pieces.
At the time Clive first told me of David's prophecy, I did not know what had happened to the children. I had not read the autopsy reports.
When I did eventually read the autopsy reports and discover that the Davidian children's bodies had been "dashed to pieces," I rushed to Clive; obviously David was right, because the autopsy reports showed that's what happened. I told him the evidence was right there, on the Worldwide Web, in the Waco Holocaust Electronic Museum:

http://public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum/death/page/d_bg.html

Clive sprang to his feet when I mentioned the Museum. "I am not prepared, nor will I ever be prepared to speak concerning Carol Valentine and her website," he said. He said this with such anger -- I had never seen Clive react like this before, to anything. It's amazing. When Tarrant County autopsy photographer Don Petty showed Clive autopsy photos and a gag photo of burnt Davidians being served up on dinner plates, Clive had no reaction to that terrible insult. But mention Carol Valentine -- who demands that the murderers of his daughter be prosecuted -- Clive goes ballistic.

Clive insisted no, the children were not torn to pieces. He said the kids' bodies got messed up because the bunker fell on them. Notice that Clive used the government's word for the concrete room -- "bunker." Later I looked at the diagram of where the mothers and children's bodies were found inside that concrete room,

http://public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum/death/map/d_map02.html

and then looked at the aerial picture of the site in the Museum.

http://public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum/death/fig/d_fig02.jpg

With one exception, the mothers and children's bodies were not under that hole. Besides, as you have pointed out, concrete debris falling on top of a head would hold the head in place, not remove it. Clive further boxed himself in -- he said the mothers and children lay down and hid under blankets. So the heads would be just as protected as any other part of the body, all horizonal and under the blanket, right? Why would the heads disappear then? And what of the fractured body parts throughout the rest of the concrete room and the rest of the anomalies? You list them in:

http://public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum/death/page/d_id2.html

So the autopsy reports bear witness that David Koresh had indeed prophesied correctly. The children were torn to pieces. Clive should have been yelling the news of David's accurate prophecy from the highest rooftops. Instead, he forwards the government's cover-up lie.
It's so bad that Clive had a plaque made up for placement on the Mt. Carmel grounds. The plaque honored the mothers and children who died when "the bunker collapsed." I don't think the plaque is there anymore.

Then there is the problem of the date of the death of David Koresh.

Daniel 12:11 And The Problem With Koresh's Date Of Death

CV:
What is the problem with the date of David Koresh's death?

X98:
Daniel 12:11 says this:

"And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand and two hundred and ninety days."

David Koresh said he was the "daily sacrifice," and prophesied he would be killed. If we believe David was the fulfillment of this scripture, then we must believe that 1290 days after David's death "the abomination that maketh desolate" was set up.
Count 1290 days from April 19, 1993 -- the day the government says David died -- and you can't find an "abomination that maketh desolate" being set up where David was martyred. Nothing happened on October 30, 1996. We must reach one of two conclusions: Either David was a false prophet, or that David did not die on April 19.

If Clive and the other so-called Branch Davidians truly believed David was the prophet, they'd be looking around for "the abomination that maketh desolate," counting backwards 1290 days, and establishing a date of death for David in this manner. Or, if they truly believed the government's date of death, they'd have to conclude David was not the prophet he claimed to be.
But either way, they are silent. They simply allow the thinking people among us to conclude David was a false prophet.
At this point the only Abomination That Maketh Desolate that I see standing in the holy place is the Cover up Church founded on the Sabbath by Clive Doyle on September 18, 1999.

Koresh's Earthquake Prophecy

During the siege David predicted that Waco would be hit by an earthquake. "I forewarn you the Lake Waco area of Old Mount Carmel will be terribly shaken. The waters of the lake will be emptied through the broken damn [sic]. The heavens are calling you to judgment. Please consider these tokens of great concern." Yet Clive Doyle and the other Davidians never speak of this prophecy. If they believed in David, they surely would be telling Waco residents about the predictions. Or perhaps Clive thinks the government phonied up the letter and signed his name to it? In that case, he should speak out. But either way, he says nothing.

Koresh Said His Name Would Be Known Throughout The World

All throughout the delivery of his message, David predicted that his name would someday be known around the world. Was David right, or what? Now here is something Clive cannot, and does not, deny!

Doyle's Attitude Towards Mind Control

"What did David say the Abomination that Maketh Desolate was?" I've asked this question of Clive, Edna, Katherine Mattson, Sheila Martin, Ophelia Santos, Mary Belle Jones: They all say, as if they were programmed, that they don't remember, that David said they would forget everything. Funny thing is that they all use the same words, and say them robotically. Again, funny how they remembered those words of David's but not what he said about the Abomination.
If David's job was to interpret symbols, the Abomination that Maketh Desolate is central. How could it be that none of them remember?

Clive's stance about the mind control used on the Davidians during the siege is peculiar. I've asked him about the effects of being blasted with high volume noise and bright lights day and night, the Tibetan chants, the rabbit squeals and all the other torture. Clive would reply that he and others would walk around in a daze until they just fell over from exhaustion and then later wake up again to the blaring sounds. But then he went on to say talking about the mind control that went on there would take away from David's message. But Clive doesn't know what David's message was.
After my stance against the Cover-up Church, Clive said that no mind control was attempted during the siege, period. And if you mention that there were government agents inside the Mt. Carmel Center before the initial raid, Clive's typical response is: "You think everyone is an agent." No, I don't. How peculiar that Clive found it necessary to twist what I said to make it sound "paranoid." That's what agents do, isn't it?

Once I was having a discussion about David's date of death with Clive Doyle and David Koresh's mother, Bonnie Haldeman. They both became agitated when I suggested that David could not have died on April 19. I asked what evidence they had that David died on April 19; they said they had forensic evidence supplied by the government. "These are the people who murdered him. Why hold that evidence to be conclusive?" I asked. I asked Bonnie Halderman if she had any independent forensic evaluation done on the remains the government claimed were David's, and she said no.

Leaving Your Christ To Burn

Once when I was talking about David's date of death, Clive told me that Renos Avraam passed David Koresh as Renos was making his way to jump out of a window to escape the fire. Think about that. Renos, who allegedly believed David Koresh was "God made flesh," leaves "God made flesh" to die in the fire while he jumps out the window. Sorry, that does not pass the smell test.

All This For Rock n' Roll?

As for David Thibodeau: He says he was not particularly religious and was just there for the music. Yet he says he entered into a convenience marriage to Rachel Koresh's sister Michelle, says he suffered the 51 days of torture, says he suffered through the CS attack ... what for? Because he liked David Koresh's guitar playing? Sorry, that does not pass the smell test either.

[For more information on David Thibodeau, see: Fire Survivor's Story(s): True or False?
http://public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum/burial/page/b_a.html ]

Clive says bringing up the issue of David Koresh's death is not going to help the survivors. On the contrary. I think it will help the survivors and the rest of us, for that matter. It would be very helpful to learn who believes in the teachings of David Koresh, and who believes in the government.

Doyle Defies Koresh's Teaching On Sabbath

CV:
Let's talk about David's Sabbath teachings and how Clive applies them.

X98:
Clive defied David's teachings by dishonoring the Sabbath. That may seem like a small point to you, but David Koresh believed that observation of the Sabbath was a keystone of salvation: The Sabbath was the day on which men could enter the rest of God and gain deliverance, according to David.

If you were Satan and you wanted to found the Synagogue of Satan, what day would you choose to lay the foundation? You'd choose the Sabbath, and that is exactly what Clive did. He committed an unbelievable sacrilege by laying the foundations of the new Davidian chapel -- dedicated to the memory of the martyrs -- on Saturday, September 18, 1999. Talk about throwing the beliefs of the martyrs right back in their faces. They died for their beliefs. Clive did not have to lay the foundation on that day.

[Readers: See article on the Cover-up Church:
http://public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum/burial/doc/x98_rev.html

David Koresh considered the Sabbath so important that he referred to his major message of faith as "the Sabbath message." Let me quote you some of David's words:

We learned that God spoke all things into existence. And by their word all things came forth unto perfection. Adam and Eve on the Sabbath day were to behold God's word by the things that were created ... The Sabbath was a spoken creation of God, wasn't it? It was no less important than any of the other six days of Creation, was it?

As a matter of fact, we can say that it [the Sabbath] demands more respect and more honor because it contains within itself the manifestation of all things .... Sister White [Ellen G. White, founder of Seventh Day Adventists movement] says that we're gonna have to teach the Sabbath more fully.
... God did all the work, didn't he? And God spoke the Sabbath as a covenant so that we could acknowledge who the creator is.
You're out there trying to overcome your sins. Trying to make yourself perfect and failing every day ... [b]y trying to overcome your own sins and trying to live in your own power. Not entering into God's rest or God's revealed plan of salvation. [ The Seventh Angel Enter into Rest January 31, 1985. ]

Doyle Not Even a Seventh Day Adventist

And it wasn't just David's teaching that Clive was trashing. Respect for the Sabbath was of paramount importance to all Seventh Day Adventists. Ellen G. White, the founder of Seventh Day Adventism, insisted that the SEVENTH day of the week -- Saturday -- should be observed as God's day, that we obey God's commandment and do no work on that day. That is why the movement is called SEVENTH DAY Adventism.

Despite what Clive says, he never has repented his sin. Instead, he and the other Davidians tell a variety of lies and offer a variety of excuses about what happened.

What Happened On September 18, 1999

CV:
I'd like a detailed account of what happened on September 18, 1999.

X98:
On that day I was at home in the morning at the farm house on Old Mexia Road. I wasn't attending Sabbaths with Clive then; it was after he refused to send the letter to Khatami. Clive dropped by to pick up two students who were staying with me that weekend, to take them to the Sabbath meeting which was to be held at Sheila Martin's house. The students were Ron Goins and Peter Wagstaff. Peter is the man from England.
When Clive arrived -- he came between 11 a.m. and noon -- he told me he was going to hold a vote at that meeting to decide where the chapel was to be placed. At that time Danforth was just beginning the re investigation; despite all the excavation and earth moving the government did after April 19, there was still much evidence to be found in the earth at the site of the old chapel. Thus I came to the conclusion that the crime scene should not be covered up, and told Clive what I thought. As Clive left I told him that I would stand behind whatever the group decided.

Now let's pay attention to the time line. Clive dropped by between 11 a.m. and noon. The Sabbath meeting would have been held about one hour later, and would have lasted three or four hours. So it would have been about 3 or 4 p.m. before the results of the vote were known.

After Clive left, I went to the library. At about 3:00 pm Peter Wagstaff approached my desk. He told me that the Davidians had voted to put the new chapel on the site of the old chapel. I was grieved that they would do such a thing, but again made excuses for them in my own mind. I had already told Clive I would support whatever "the group" decided.
Later that day, just after sunset -- it must have been about 5 p.m. -- I drove to the Mt. Carmel Center to pick up one of my housemates. What I found there was so shocking that it completely altered my life.

When I arrived, I saw a sign stuck in the ground at the site of the old chapel. This sign read "The Phoenix Project." The Phoenix Project was the CIA program that assassinated Vietnamese civilians during the war. The phoenix is also a pagan symbol of resurrection. What a strange sign to put up. The Davidians hated paganism and it symbols; and they, as civilians, had been assassinated as the Vietnamese had been. An American flag was flying right at the spot. The last time the American flag few at that site was on April 19, 1993, when the US burned the old church down.
To my astonishment, I found the boundaries of the new chapel had been measured and marked off. Stakes had been driven into the ground and string tied around the stakes.
The workmen were already gone. I looked around for Clive, but he was not there. I assumed someone had put those stakes there without his knowing about it. After all, Clive had driven from my house just an hour or so before for the Sabbath meeting to vote on the placement of the chapel. How could Clive drive to the Sabbath meeting at Sheila's house (a good 30 minute drive away), conduct the Sabbath meeting, hold a discussion on the placement of the new chapel, take the vote, return to Mt. Carmel, meet up with the workmen, and have the workmen survey and stake the ground in so short a time?

I was furious at what I saw. I ran up, got my penknife out and cut all the leveling lines. I pulled up the stakes except for the ones marking the four corners of the building. As for the American flag, I will only say that particular flag disappeared from the site and will never fly again.

Doyle Says: "I Helped Them. I Measured."

It was dark before I met Clive at his trailer. I did not mention what I had done, I simply told him the news about the work done on the foundations. I was shocked by his lack of surprise at the news.
Then he told me that on the morning of the Sabbath meeting he had found the workmen at the site working, and he told them to stop. But I reasoned: How could these men even begin their work when they did not know where to pound the stakes?

Given the time Clive arrived at my house, given the time it would have taken to conduct services and take the vote, given the amount of work done in measuring and setting the foundations, it was obvious that Clive had already decided where the chapel would be built before he picked my housemates up at noon that day. The work had to have been done when Clive was at the Sabbath meeting, supposedly deciding where to put he new church. The vote on the placement of the chapel must have been a sham. It began to dawn on me that Doyle was a cold-blooded liar.

So I asked Clive how the workmen knew where to pound the stakes, and how they knew the dimensions. He said: "I helped them. I measured for them."

That's not stopping them from working. That's actively assisting them. "How could you do it Clive?" I asked. Clive shot back: "Christ worked on the Sabbath."

"Are you Christ? Or did Christ tell you to do this thing? Where is He so that I can follow Him?" I asked in all seriousness. "No. No. No." He mumbled as he made for the door to his trailer.

"Repent, Doyle!" I demanded. "If you fear God, repent for what you have done. It is a crime before God!"

I told Clive to take out the four stakes I had left in the ground, and to apologize to the Davidian community for lying and pretending they had a voice in where the chapel was to be built. But he just ignored me.

The next day Ron Goins, Peter Wagstaff, and I went to the Mt. Carmel Center at sunrise. No one was there but Clive, mowing the grass. Clive asked me "Why did you cut the strings, are you just trying to be belligerent?'

Ron told Clive we could not help him if he refused to repent for what he did. Clive refused, saying he did nothing wrong. When Ron told him that he was willing to go to jail if he did not pray, Doyle's knees dropped to the ground as if someone had hit him in the back of the head with a two by four.

We all prayed for God's help but when it came time for Clive to ask for forgiveness for laying the foundation on the Sabbath, he just didn't do it. I listened very carefully. He beat around the bush, all right, but did not ask forgiveness for laying the foundations of the church on the Sabbath.

"The Ox Is In the Ditch" And Other Excuses

Clive and a number of so-called Davidians and their supporters have offered different excuses and lies to explain away Clive's behavior. One such excuse for laying the foundations on the Sabbath was that "The ox is in the ditch." But there was no ox in the ditch. There was no emergency. The work could have been done the next day.
I think I've mentioned before that Clive is indecisive and he dilly-dallies. Well, he sure didn't dilly dally when it came to putting in those foundations. In they went on the Sabbath. He did it on purpose.

Many other excuses were posted by so-called "Davidian" supporters on the Mt. Carmel website discussion board, the one run by Tommy Cook. Some said Clive did not work on September 18, he really just stopped the others from working. But during one of my protests outside the gates of Mt. Carmel, I got Clive's admission on video tape. Clive said, on camera: "I measured." Then came the charge I had morphed the footage.

When it was pointed out that an independent researcher took the footage and that I was not skilled enough technically to morph, a new lie was told: Clive's supporter said I had destroyed ALL stakes and measuring work, so that the Sabbath work is not a component in today's church. And besides, it is perfectly Biblical to break Biblical law in order to save the lawless (presumably, the builders; presumably Clive's purpose was to save them). Finally, there was an assertion that Clive had repented for working, so it was all made better. But that's not true, either, as I have just said.

When the excuses were challenged, Tommy simply took the exchanges down from the discussion board. I captured some of these exchanges and you can read them on:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/KORESHX98

Look between December 26, 2000, Msg. 539, and March 16, 2001, Msg. 857.

Abomination Built On Blood Of Martyrs

Think of the significance of Clive's act. Here is hollowed ground, ground that ran red with the blood of of people who died for their beliefs. They believed keeping the Sabbath was the cornerstone of salvation. And what does Clive do? He desecrates it by laying foundations on that very ground -- on the Sabbath.

[Readers: You can see where the new chapel was placed. Look at this URL:
http://Public-action/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum/death/map/d_map01.html ]

The section marked "Stage" in the ATF map was the site of the old Davidian chapel. The bodies of Raymond Friesen, Malcolm Livingston, Floyd L. Houtman, Scott Sonobe, Douglas W. ("Wayne") Martin were allegedly recovered from that area.]

In Exodus 35, God lays down the conditions under which the Tabernacle is to be built. "Six days shall work be done, but on the Seventh day thee shall be to you a holy day, a sabbath of rest to the Lord: whosever doeth work therein shall be put to death." (Ex. 35:2) It seems that Clive went out of his way to dishonor the martyrs by committing this heinous act at the site of their martyrdom, exactly defying God's commandment relating to the building of a place of worship.

Inverted Crosses In The Synagogue of Satan

Rational people -- people like you, Carol -- often miss the obvious. Those who would control the world believe in the power of the unseen. As I've told you, they believe in the power of Satan and use symbols and signs to call up his power. And they use symbols to communicate to each other, to communicate victory. The Masons, for one, are widely known for this practice.

This government is Satanic. Believe what you will about David Koresh, but his murderers obviously believed he was who he claimed to be.
Did you know there are three upside-down crosses built into the front window of the Cover-up Church? The architecture and the symbols used in places of worship are of utmost importance. An upside down cross is a symbol for Lucifer. And the Cover-up Church has three of them -- three as in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. Those windows communicate this message: Death to the Father. Death to the Son. Death to the Holy Ghost.

I was able to capture a picture of this window and you can see it at my website.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/KORESHX98/files/NewFrontwindow.gif

Notice the guy on the ladder is wearing the black X. That's the black X of evil conquering good. The black X was flown from one of those tanks at the height of the fire at the Mt. Carmel Center on April 19.

Star of David (al-Roy)

If you visit the Cover-up Church, you will notice a sign by the front gates. Upon the sign is the Star of David, the symbol of Zionism. Remember that David thought Israel was "filthy." Remember what Houteff said about the Jews. Remember there was no Zionist symbol on the Davidian flag. But now Clive features the Star of David.

Tribute To "Our" Sheriff Harwell

Also on that sign there is a tribute to the late Sheriff Jack Harwell of McLennan County. The tribute reads: "Remember our late sheriff Jack Harwell." Note the use of the word "our" sheriff to describe Harwell. Harwell cooperated 100% with the ATF and the FBI in the slaughter of the people who loved David Koresh. Yet there is not one mention of David Koresh or the martyrs on Clive Doyle's sign. [See Endnote.]

Pharisaic Groves of Trees

Clive Doyle and his supporters have made a big deal about planting trees around the Synagogue of Satan; there's a grove planted in the front, and a grove planted to the left. What does the Bible say about planting groves of trees near a church?

"Thou shalt not plant thee a grove of any trees near unto the altar of the LORD thy God, which thou shalt make thee." Deuteronomy 16:21.

[Reader, you may review X98's analysis in "Groves of Fire," at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/KORESHX98/message/577 ]

You will find many instances of God forbidding the establishment of groves of trees. In "The Plot Against Christianity," Elizabeth Dilling points out that tree worship is a Talmudic pagan practice. We all know about tree planting in Israel, don't we? Now we have in the Cover-up Church. The fingerprints of the Zionists are all over the Synagogue of Satan.

"Church" Closed To Public On Sabbath

But here is the cherry on the whipped cream. I went to Mt. Carmel on Saturday, April 14, the Sabbath day. And I found the gates were locked. The "church" was closed to the public. Yet there were cars in the church parking lot. Then I learned that Clive and others -- including David's mother -- were actually in the "church" having a meeting. After they finished the meeting, they opened the gates and drove past me. Later I learned that the "church" has been closed to the public on the Sabbath for the last six months. Think about that. What kind of a church is closed on the Sabbath?

This is the Synagogue of Satan. Clive's Synagogue of Satan is his vengeance on David Koresh.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/KORESHX98/message/1141

Doyle Is One Of Theirs

For those who do not understand the world of black magic, there is "rational" proof of who Clive Doyle is. Sen. Danforth said in his report that the Davidians set the fire that "killed the children." Then he gave all kinds of circumstantial evidence that Clive is Suspect Number One in the arson. Danforth says Doyle "admitted" to the Texas Rangers that the Davidians started the fire, Doyle's jacket was soaked in flammable liquids and his hands were burnt, etc. Just realize that Clive Doyle should be arrested for the murder of the Davidian children. But he isn't. That tells you all you need to know. The reason Doyle is not arrested? Doyle is one of theirs.

Endnote: On the Sabbath day of April 14, 2001, Andrew X98 was present outside the closed gates of the Mt. Carmel Center, warning visitors about the Cover-up Church, and drawing their attention to the Star of David al-Roy and to the tribute to McLennan County Sheriff Jack Harwell, "Remember our sheriff Jack Harwell."

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/KORESHX98/message/1141
On April 19, 2001, X98 was outside the Mt. Carmel gates again and looked at the sign: Someone had painted over the words: "Remember our sheriff Jack Harwell."
How long will it be before those posing as followers of David Koresh paint over the Star of David al Roy?

Back: Burial Gallery Entrance
Home: Museum Entrance
Search: Museum Text

Many people who distrust the mainstream media have turned to alternate news sources, some of which are Internet based. Unfortunately, many of these alternate sources of news simply promote an alternate series of lies. These alternate lies are of course dressed up as "exposés." But you can easily tell the phonies from the real thing. The information in the Waco Holocaust Electronic Museum is an acid test.

Does your news source promote Mike McNulty's video, Waco: The Rules of Engagement or wring its hands because the Davidian law suit against the government failed? (See Waco Documentary Is A Hoax! and Waco Suits for Waco Suckers.) Does your alternate news source carry promotional pieces about rebuilding the Davidian church in Waco and mouth nice words about "healing"? (See The Cover-up Church.)

Remember, since ancient times, inquiries into questionable deaths have started with the bodies of the victims. If your news source won't give you an honest and full account of the forensic information on Waco, or if it does not have a link to the Waco Holocaust Electronic Museum ... your alternate news has failed a fundamental acid test.

Published by Public Action, Inc., a news and news analysis service. All commercial rights are reserved. A full statement of terms and conditions for copying and redistribution is available in the Museum Library. "Waco Holocaust Electronic Museum," "SkyWriter," and the sky writing logo are trademarks of Public Action, Inc.

http://www.Public-Action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum
or http://206.55.8.10/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum
Curator@Public-Action.com

All original material is copyright 1996-2001 by Carol A. Valentine, on loan to Public Action, Inc.
This page last updated April 19, 2001