Old time Davidian Bob Kendrick told me that David did not trust Clive because Clive was always seeking to "be somebody." This was confirmed by another old-timer, Doug Mitchell.  Then Tom Cook, the man who runs the Mt. Carmel website for Clive Doyle and acts as Clive's PR point man, told me that I should not trust Clive.  Tom told me Clive had gone to Lois Roden and asked if he could print a tract that he had written.  Lois said no, but that Clive defied her and printed it and sent it out anyway, using the Davidian mailing list --

CV:
One moment.  When did Tom Cook come on the Davidian scene?

X98:
Tom Cook came onto the scene in 1993 when he put up bail for Jesse Amen.  Jesse Amen was the man who was arrested after he mysteriously got through the FBI cordon during the siege, camped out with the Davidians, and conveniently left just before the fire only to be arrested by the FBI.  Many believe Jesse was an FBI informant. 

CV:
So how does Tom Cook know about the Roden days?

X98:
Tom is Clive's hairdresser and confidant.  Clive must have told him about the incident.  When Tom spilled the beans to me, he told me not to let Clive know he had told me. 

Strange to say: Once I helped Clive move his house.  We were packing his personal effects, and I saw his underwear.  Clive wears bikini briefs, silky little things, with flowers and other pretty designs on them.  I said, "Hey Clive, what are you doing wearing girls drawers?" He said he wore them because he found he liked the way they felt next to his skin.  So I said, "Well, that explains the silk.  What about the little rose buds?"  Clive had no explanation for them. 

CV:
That's a puzzler, all right.  So then, Tom Cook, Clive's confident, spilled the beans and told you, telling you not to tell Clive he told you.  What did you do?

X98:
I did not believe Tom's story, so I went to Clive and told him what Tom said.  I asked Clive if Tom's story was true.  Clive said yes, he had asked Lois if he could print his own tract, Lois said no, Clive did it anyway.  He sent it out using the Davidian printing resources and the mailing list.

Put in other words, David abolished Clive's job.  For almost 25 years prior to this incident, Clive had been the official printer.  For David to abolish his job on the heels of the humiliation of having his tract squelched must have been tough on Clive.

Shortly after David said "no more printing," the administration building, with all the printing equipment, burned down.  A number of Davidians thought Clive was responsible.  Whether he did it or not is beside the point.  What is significant is that the bad blood between David Koresh and Clive Doyle was no secret.

Clive rejoined the Koreshians after David got control of the Mt. Carmel Center again.  I am not sure exactly when Clive returned to live there, but I do know that Clive lived at the Mt. Carmel Center at some point in 1989.

By the way, during the three and a half years I was in Waco, I often saw Clive Doyle socializing with the old supporters of George Roden.  He'd sit and talk to them for hours.

But I need to go further back in history to put Clive's role in the group into perspective.

On January 4, 1947, Victor Houteff gave a sermon at the Mt. Carmel chapel called "The Hated Jews of Today Are Not the Admired Jews of Tomorrow." Houteff said:

"In view of the fact that this scripture is now being unfolded, and also the fact that there is but one people, one nation (the descendants of the ancient scribes, priests, and Pharisees who rejected the Lord and who have not even to this day accepted Him, that are hardly desired anywhere in the world) that is now doing all she [Judea] can to gather together in Palestine -- in view of all this, the present-day Jews are that undesired nation.  Upon her, therefore, the Lord's anger is to fall if she continues to deny Christ.  Yes, the universally hated Jew is the only nation that has been scattered throughout the Gentile world, and is the only one that is now gathering together in Palestine." 

http://www.shepherds-rod.org/TGvol1/1tg22.htm

The government actually provided proof of that.  The Treasury Report on Waco contains a copy of early surveillance photos of the Mt. Carmel Center, taken before the big house we saw on TV in 1993 was built.  You have those pictures in the Museum:

http://public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum/war/fig/w_fig18.jpg
http://public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum/war/fig/w_fig19.jpg

http://public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum/war/fig/w_fig05.jpg

X98:
I can't help what lies Newsweek publishes.  There was no Star of David on the Davidian flag.  What you saw on the Davidian flag that flew during the siege was a six-winged fiery flying serpent.  You can read about the fiery flying serpent in Isaiah 14:29 and 30:6.  The very first sermon David delivered after Lois Roden identified him as a prophet of God was on the subject of the fiery flying serpent. 

By the way, that's another of David's teachings Clive is suppressing.  He has David's sermon on the fiery flying serpent.  I asked him for years if I could listen to it and he refused to allow me.

Anyway, the six wings of the fiery flying serpent on the Davidian flag were significant because David believed he was fulfilling the Fifth Seal so the Sixth Seal could become a reality.  One of the martyrs, the late Julliete Martinez, sewed the flying fiery serpent flag that flew during the siege. Julliete's mother, Ophelia Santoyo, told me this.  No, there was no Star of David on the Davidian flag.

X98:
No.  As far as I know, there is no explanation for that skull.  Nor have I ever heard that any of the Davidians wore a Star of David.  The Star of David is a political symbol, not a religious one; it is not Biblical and has nothing to do with King David of the Old Testament. 

The Star of David was originally the emblem of David al-Roy, a Messianic 12 Century Khazar Jew who dreamt about the conquest of Palestine and raised an army for that purpose.  You will remember that Khazaria lay between the Caspian and Black Seas.  The Khazars converted to Judaism in the 8th Century; their descendants, the European Jews, falsely claim to be the descendants of the ancient Hebrews.  So David al-Roy's Star of David (al-Roy) became the emblem of the Jewish Crusades, particularly the Zionist holy mission to conquer Palestine for Judaism.  You can read about this history in Arthur Koestler's "The Thirteenth Tribe." 

The only Israeli among the Davidian dead was Pablo Cohen, and as he was (allegedly) a follower of David Koresh, he could not have been "Jewish." With his focus on the Book of Revelations, David was firmly planted in the New Testament.  The Jews reject the New Testament. 

In the Museum you raise the possibility that some of the bodies and body parts found in the concrete room may not belong to Davidians at all.  Maybe the two-year old's skull is one of those.  After all, how likely is it that the Davidians would forget a two-year old child that belonged to the community?

CV:
If you read other autopsy reports, you will notice detailed records of the effects found around the remains -- bullets, clothing, shoes, etc .  The autopsy report of Mt. Carmel 51a, however, makes no mention of the Star of David being found near the skull at the site of recovery.  In fact, the autopsy report clearly says: "The remains are limited to a skull with articulated mandible."

http://public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum/death/51a/51a_aut.html

X98:
Well, I can assure you David Koresh was no Zionist or lover of Israel. As a Muslim, that was one of the first things I checked out when I arrived.  I would have been out the door in a hurry if David was a Zionist.  Clive told me David had traveled to Israel, yes, but he hated it and thought it was "filthy." I heard Clive quote David many times, talking about Israel, calling it "filthy."

Petty told me he had some photographs he wanted to sell to the "right person," and he thought Clive might be that person.  I told Clive the coroners' photographer wanted to meet with him.  Clive agreed, and we both went up to Dallas to see him.

Clive and I spent four to five hours with Petty.  We met in the office of an attorney who was helping him sell the photos.  There was a large table in the office.  The autopsy photographs were stored in a series of boxes, approximately 2 feet by 2 feet, some on top of the table, some on the floor.

Clive and I saw thousands of photos, including the photo of Shari, Clive's daughter.  The attitude of the photographer was nonchalant, and even jovial, despite the horrific nature of the material.  He said that he had shown the photos to his friends and knew they would be worth something some day.  Throughout, Clive did not react.

"What is this," I demanded.  Petty said the table setting and meal was set up as a joke between him and some of the guys.  I jumped up on my feet and threw the picture across the table at him.  I was furious about it.  "This is funny? This is what you call a joke?" I felt like hitting him but did not.  Clive was deadpan throughout.  His face revealed no emotion. 

CV:
Clive said nothing?

X98:
That's right.  On the way home I continued to express my outrage, and then Clive said he was sorry he did not react to the photo when he saw it.  What kind of a person would make a joke like that to rub it in a father's face?  OK, I don't know if Petty was the same person who put the Star of David prop next to the anonymous little skull, but you can see from this story the dregs that worked for the Tarrant County Medical Examiner's office.

X98:
OK.  Victor Houteff died in 1955, leaving behind his widow Florence.  Ben and Lois Roden were among the flock at that time.  In 1959 a major prophecy of Florence's failed.  In 1962 she sold off much of the property and left with the money.  A few months later, Clive Doyle arrived.  Ben Roden was now in charge of the Mt. Carmel Center.  Roden appointed Clive as the official Mt. Carmel printer -- a natural enough move, considering Clive's background as currency printer for Australia. 

Clive printed the Center's religious tracts and of course had open access to the Davidian mailing list.  Any government agent would give his eye teeth for that information.  Spooks are always trying to find out who is talking to who.  By the way, I noticed in my almost four years with Clive: He is an obsessive keeper of lists.  He keeps a list of those who visit the Mt. Carmel Center.  He keeps lists of people who contribute money ...

X98:
Old time Davidian Doug Mitchell told me Clive hated David Koresh.  Being a newcomer at the time, I told Doug that his statement was ridiculous.  Then Doug told me this story: In 1989 David, already married to Rachel, announced to a gathering of Branch Davidians that he intended to take additional wives -- and that Clive Doyle's 14-year old daughter, Karen, was his first choice.  Doug was there and witnessed it.  Apparently David had not given Clive any prior notice of his intention.  "You should have seen Clive's face.  Clive hated David Koresh." 

CV:
How much weight do you place in what Doug Mitchell has to say about Clive Doyle?  I understand that Doug Mitchell is one of the claimants to the Mt. Carmel property and is Clive Doyle's opponent.

X98:
According to the by-laws of the Branch Davidians, the owner of the property is the Branch Davidian prophet.  Doug Mitchell claims to be a prophet.  Clive Doyle makes no claim to being a prophet, and no Branch Davidian survivor accepts Clive as a prophet.  So Doug Mitchell does not gain anything by inventing stories about Clive.  Clive is already disqualified from ownership by the Branch Davidian by laws. 

CV:
On the other hand, Rita Riddle lived in the Mt. Carmel Center with her 17-year old daughter Misty Ferguson.  Rita told Waco researcher Ken Fawcett that David Koresh did not sleep with other women, that he was not sleeping with her or Misty.  Sandy Connizzo, the mother of Mike Schroeder, believes her grandson Bryan is truly the child of her son Mike (not David Koresh).  Stanley Sylvia, husband of Lorraine Sylvia, filed suit for damages for the death of his one-year old daughter, Hollywood.  So here we have Stanley claiming Lorraine's child was his, not David Koresh's.  These situations would argue for questioning the stories of Koresh's sexual practices. 

X98:
Well, I did not know David Koresh and wasn't living at the Mt. Carmel Center then, so I can only tell you what I learned during the time I was Clive's student.  Because I have no information to the contrary, I believe what Doug Mitchell told me is true: that David announced he was taking other wives and did so.

Abraham had many wives.  One was his half-sister, Sarah (Gen. 20:12.) Twice he lent out the beautiful Sarah to other men to save his life.  (Gen. 12: 11-15, Gen. 20:2).  His son Isaac also lent his wife out. (Gen.26:6-9).

All of the 12 Patriarchs had many wives as did many of the prophets. 

God commands Hosea to marry a whore! After the priests kill his son Jezereel (Seed of God) or in other words The Son of God, he is instructed to take yet another wife of whoredom. The accounts can be found in Hosea 1:2-3 and 3:1-3. 

Isaiah was told to make a child with a woman who was a prophetess, while the act of "making" the baby was witnessed by Uriah the priest and Zechariah the son of Jeberechiah (Isa. 8:2,3.).  And in another place in the same book Isaiah was told to take off all of his clothes and walk naked in Jerusalem for three years preaching (Isa 20:2).

Polygamy was practiced by Job 27:15; Lamech, Genesis 4:19; Abraham, Genesis 16; Esau, Genesis 26:34; 28:9; Jacob, Genesis 29:30; Ashur, Chronicles 4:5; Gideon, Judges 8:30; Elkanah, 1 Samuel 1:2; David, 1 Samuel 25:39-44; 2 Samuel 3:2-5; 5:13; 1 Chronicles 14:3; Solomon, 1 Kings 11:1-8; Rehoboam, 2 Chronicles 11:18-23; Abijah, 2 Chronicles 13:21; Jehoram, 2 Chronicles 21:14; Joash, 2 Chronicles 24:3; Ahab, 2 Kings 10; Jehoiachin, 2 Kings 24:15; Belshazzar, Daniel 5:2 ...

So why the squeamishness about David Koresh?

CV:
Well, put like that, I can't imagine why.

I suspect Doyle arrived at the Mt. Carmel Center in 1962 as an undercover agent and has been undercover agent ever since.  I suspect David Koresh spotted him.  That may have been why David treated him the way he did.  David was testing, and inviting Clive to leave or to repent. 

David Koresh took his two daughters, first Karen, then Shari, as wives.  Why would Clive put up with it?  When I put the question to him, "Clive, why did you put up with it?" Clive would say he did so because he believed David was a prophet.  But obviously Clive did not, and does not, believe in David. 

CV:
Do you know when Clive returned to the Mt. Carmel Center -- the house we saw in 1993?

X98:
I can't give you an exact date, but supposedly he returned to live there shortly before the February 28 raid.  Now I doubt even this.  Clive did not know many of the people who lived and died at the Mt. Carmel Center between February 28 and April 19.  I know this because when I went down there in 1996, I decided I wanted to write short biographies on each of the martyrs.  So naturally I started asking Clive about the people.  Time and time again Clive said:  "I did not know him/her."  One of the Davidians who lived there told me she scarcely remembered Clive being at the Mt. Carmel Center.  "I rarely saw him, and when he was there, he hardly spoke to anyone," she said. 

This new negotiation tape that Peter dropped off had Clive's voice on it.  The FBI negotiator is talking with Steve Schneider and tells Steve that Clive's daughter Karen wants to talk to Clive.  Steve says that he has Clive right here.  Then the negotiator asks Clive how is it going, are you being forced to stay?  Clive says no, no one is being forced to stay in here.  Then Clive asks: Does my daughter want to talk to me?  The negotiator says no, she just wants to know if everything is OK. 

I've often questioned whether the voices on the tapes were those of the actual Davidians.  Sometimes the voices on the tapes sound idiotic, as if they are baby-talking the Bible.  Other times the voices give the impression the speaker had real command over the material.  It's no big deal to impersonate a voice.  And they would have access to Clive's voice whenever they wanted to, no problem.

So either Peter or Clive just found this tape kicking around in the attic, or they had it made up in the lab just for me and any others who might come along and ask the same common-sense question.  Either way, it was important for them to get that tape to me.  I was already condemning Clive.  I wonder why he cared enough to send me that tape?

I'd remind Clive what David said about Livingston, but the next time the subject came up Clive would again say he did not know why David sent Livingston out.  Finally I started handing out Livingston's writings and Clive stopped me, saying I would cause confusion.  So I was shut down, at least until I got a computer.  Then I began to talk about Livingston Fagan on line.  Suddenly things changed at the Mt. Carmel website.  Suddenly they featured Livingston's writings, but the quotes were taken out of context.  They made Livingston look crazy.  They also never included any of Livingston's commentary about electro-chemical or electro-magnetic streams of consciousness, a theme David was working on.

But my point is this: It is hard to imagine that Clive was living inside during the siege and had no clue why David sent Livingston out. 

Livingston is very smart -- he has advanced degrees and came from England with his mother and wife and children to study with David.  Livingston unselfishly left the Mt. Carmel Center to serve David, and then lost his entire family in the catastrophe.  He is still in prison serving his 40 year prison term.  He's not cooperating with the system as the others are.

http://www.amarillonet.com/stories/062900/tex_LD0727.shtml

Firemen are trained to handle fathers and mothers who try to run into a burning house to rescue their children.  Now here's a father not running in, but running out, careful to rescue his doggie, but not worrying about his daughter.  "Yeah, my daughter is in the burning building, but never mind. I'm getting out, and so is my dog."  Clive had plenty of time to find Shari.

Before his March 3 radio address, David told the Davidians that he wanted them to leave the Mt. Carmel Center.  He issued instructions on how that was to be done.  Clive told me that he and Shari decided they were not going to follow David's instructions.  They were afraid they might be shot if they did.  So they planned to hide behind a barrel until they knew it was safe to come out. 

If Clive and Shari were close enough to get together and plan to save their lives in March, they were close enough to get together and plan to save their lives in April.  On April 19 they were given plenty of notice that the end was coming.  Clive says that Shari stayed with David that morning, leading us to believe she was devoted to him.  But she showed no such devotion just a few weeks earlier in March, when she and Clive planned to disobey David and hide behind the barrel.

Sorry, none of this makes sense.  I don't think a father acts like that.  I'd say, considering everything, Clive was not in the fire on April 19.  Nor do I believe his daughter was in the fire.

CV:
It is quite possible of course that Shari -- and her children, if she had any -- is living in safety under the witness protection program.  That might be part of the deal, Clive's payoff for doing what he is doing.

But Clive did not "just pray." He got out through a hole in the very structure he was sharing with Wayne.  Why didn't he say to Wayne, "Hey, Wayne, here's a way out."  No, the story smells like old fish.  Old Australian fish.